Resources Article

Gbolahan Obisesan in conversation with Alia Alzougbi

Gbolahan Obisesan, Artistic Director and joint CEO of Brixton House talks to Inclusive Cultures coach Alia Alzougbi about the impact of the programme and his vision and plans for Brixton House.

Alia: Gbolahan, thank you for joining and giving us time to have this conversation.

You and I met through Clore Leadership’s Inclusive Cultures (IC) programme and I had the pleasure of having you in my coaching cohort. We’ve had provocative conversations as part of the programme, and you’ve brought some of your work and experience at Brixton House into the mix. You’re certainly coming into Brixton House with vision and you’re working to implement new ways of being and doing in the organisation.

Talk us through what has stayed with you from the IC programme — what has aligned with your vision and your plans for Brixton House and what has shifted for you, slightly or radically, in making Brixton House an inclusive, accessible and welcoming organisation for all?

Gbolahan: To a certain extent, being on Zoom and doing those meetings, those Inclusive Culture meetings on Zoom can be an incredibly cerebral space where you are required to think thoughtfully and respond with profound epiphanies or even offer possible solutions to the problems of inequality to a huge sector. I guess, for the most part, it has been great to really activate listening, within the space, hearing from people with lived experiences sharing what they have seen as pitfalls in the efforts of organisations and ways that they have been made to feel like a burden or left vulnerability or totally under catered for.

In the pursuit of collaboration, in the way that we feel our industry is based and the way that we can get the best out of this industry is to show that everyone has some valued contribution to make, in what we stand for and what we are creating.

So, one thing that we had to look at for Brixton, formerly Oval House was how to re-articulate who we are, what we believe, what our values are, how open and inviting those values are, especially in guiding our staff and company ethos. As well as also taking into consideration the fact that we are building something new. We are in a historically black community that is also incredibly international with its cultural demographic and its diverse representation of the global majority throughout the Borough of Lambeth.

We have a large constituent of people to cater for and more importantly not exclusive to that are people with certain disabilities and people with perhaps extra needs that we have to incorporate into our thinking in an intentional manner that is through active consultation.  We can be proud that our building is designed to be energy efficient, but it is also designed for wheelchair users to be able to get around easily, as well as operate and rig our accessible lighting grids and that people with certain disabilities or neuro-divergent needs can also feel comfortable in the spaces we have. It’s important to me that our building is a safe space, with an inclusive infrastructure and all our staff have all the training required to respond to any sort of request at any given time.

We want everyone to feel welcome walking through the door, so if our staff team is representative of our community and you are from a particular country or you speak another language, that might be indicated in our staff name badge. We want people fluent in BSL to be very much part of our staff team; so there’s no kind of exclusion of stories or the fact that BSL users also contribute to our cultural landscape and are very much part of maintaining it. So anything we can do to provide a positive and welcoming experience for people with those lived experiences when they encounter Brixton House, the more they are to comfortably return.

Alia: You speak with one voice about this idea of being black-bodied and disabled, as well as speaking multiple languages. Talila Lewis has this really interesting idea that you don’t have to be disabled to experience Ableism. This idea that we’re living in a system that places value on people’s bodies and minds, and normalises what, ultimately, are made-up ideas around what intelligence and excellence look like, and places so much emphasis on our productivity over our humanity, and this is all deeply rooted in anti-blackness, colonialism and capitalism. So, who is valuable and who is worthy, actually, is so normalised and seats white able-bodied men at the centre and that’s why it’s important to speak with one voice about the different ways that we get disabled by a system that is set up for someone else, and it’s so refreshing to hear you speaking with that sense of unity, and with an eagle-eyed vision that sees the interconnection, and applying those to Brixton House.

Gbolahan: Yeah, I guess in a way, some of that is learnt as much as also some of that is an understanding, that part of my experience is having to navigate inequality, having to navigate exclusion. For the most part, a lot of those experiences are either microaggressions or vices that for the most part appear completely invisible and you know, are embedded within the psyches of the white institutions that we have to navigate and the many white people that are in positions of power in those organisations.

Growing up from a working-class family, in predominately working-class environments where, yes, part of the experience is that you were separated from people with disability. I also grew up in Africa, in Nigeria specifically, and you know there isn’t that level of siloing of experiences or of ability in schools or in society as much as when you are in Europe. So, for the most part, you kind of find a way to support people. One of my cousin’s best friends was partly paralysed from the waist down. He used crutches to play football, to get around and that was just how he was. He never felt like he needed extra sympathy in any way, but there were moments where we had to take that into consideration if we were just playing in a certain area where we needed to help him over the fence, and he would do what he could from his upper body strength and then we would kind of help him where he asked for help. It’s about where people ask for help, that’s where you listen and respond appropriately rather than assuming what they need and how to stifle any sort of autonomy that they have about their own needs and articulating when they need us, or when they need our help.

Alia: That is such an interesting example and not least because when I was doing my own research, I’m not sure if you were there, for my provocation for the Clore Leadership Programme and for this Inclusive Cultures Programme, I went back and looked at historical records of the Ottoman Empire.

Gbolahan: I was there.

Alia: The idea that the hard division between what an able-bodied person looks like or to what extent people participate was non-existent in that space and time, although the research did not go into Disability related to mobility. We know, records show and archives show there were deaf people in the courts and sign language was used. If you were blind, people saw you as having a state of basr, a heightened awareness of everything around you. Neurodiverse people were seen as spiritually in connection, almost in a different level of vibration as well.

And it is just so interesting to see how wisdom is being lost if we don’t actively preserve pre-colonial global perspectives on Disability.

Gbolahan: Yeah, I think it is about paying reference to other cultures and understanding that where there might be a lack of infrastructure in some of the support systems for disabled communities, there is still an open kind of respect of their kind of lived experiences. As much as also, as you say, just that level of connectedness or a perspective that we don’t perhaps tune into because we somehow see ourselves as superior when actually, it’s about acknowledging there is equity in offering the space for others to contribute to how society can be and what space society offers people with different lived experiences to be seen, heard and to guide.

Obviously, there is some organisational structural stuff that is leading some of the thinking, but there is also the level of consultation to make sure that, you know, we’re not just assuming. We are making sure that everything is integrated in a meaningful way based on having the conversation and knowing what is expected as a standard as much as also how to not make people feel somehow excluded, vulnerable or seen as an inconvenience for needing any specific special requirements.

Alia: You have a resident disabled company also at Brixton House, and that’s how you ensure you’re holding yourself accountable, ensuring that the DNA of the organisation, the whole infrastructure, as you say, is informed from the inside by that lived experience. Can you tell us more about that and what’s that’s brought for you?

Gbolahan: I mean, we have Corali who are a dance company that work with young people with learning disability and provide the experience of their participants being expressive through dance.

There is also Extant who mainly work with people with are partially sighted or are severely visually impaired artists. Forgive me if the terminology is inaccurate. I think that’s part of my learning and I think that’s one of the things that I say is challenging is not wanting to offend people by not speaking. Whereas, you know, it’s a bit like, I would rather you say my name and make a massive faux pas’ and I’m able to correct you, rather than you don’t make the effort at all because then you are, somehow not acknowledging my existence by not even trying to make an effort in a way.

So yeah, so if I’ve got the terminology wrong then please forgive me but again, you know, both companies perhaps were inherited through their relationship prior to my appointment.

They were already resident companies at Oval House and are moving with us to Brixton House, who for the most part, know who they were designed to cater for, but then you know in having the conversation it’s about making sure that the necessary provisions to support the work that they do, are available and hopefully integrated into our organisation. As much as also, where necessary, where we have questions, we know who to go to.

We also have Quiplash who describe themselves as a queer group, who are one of our associate artists also offering us consultation about how to be more inclusive in relation to access, and integrating an understanding of how to interact, and I guess, being offered personalised descriptors by someone who is visually impaired is part of that understanding.

So that there is a level of idiosyncratic response to the fact that someone can’t see you, so this is how I would describe myself and hopefully, that gives you some kind of understanding of what I look like and how I present.

And all of those things are incredibly important because language is changing, the vocabulary is changing and the needs of people are becoming more articulated and it is about just being able to honour that rather than seeing it as an inconvenience or seeing it as something that you’re apprehensive of just because you feel as if you might get it wrong, or you might offend someone.

Offence is learning sometimes because that was not my intention and now I know and at least I’ve been told now, so then I’ve been corrected, put right or simply informed!

Alia: So what you’re suggesting is that, the first step is making space for those communities, collectives, organisations and companies that have been historically excluded, and asking them ‘what do you need and how do you think we can provide it?’

You are allowing that. You’ve made space for them to ask critical questions of you, while also allowing yourself to make mistakes through the process, as long as you own those mistakes and learn from them.

Gbolahan: That’s where the progression happens. You know that where there is room or there is actual compassion and empathy to understand that, there are certain requirements for interaction or certainly for a company to feel safe and free to explore their own autonomy. And you’re able to accommodate that in a way that is generous and meaningful and continue on that journey by constantly assessing the relationship as much as also being receptive to the change in language or change in definitions or the more nuanced requirements of different groups.

Then you actually go, ‘It’s the same as any rights that are articulated’ and rather than constantly pushing back and going, ‘We have no more rights to give! I have no more room to accommodate or to understand!’ 

You go, ‘Oh, okay.’ There is an enlightenment that happens that you know offers you the space to be kind and accepting of what was being expressed.

Alia: And it’s that acknowledgement that when we, when we really are leaning into these spaces of ‘inclusion’ and that word is being so overused, it’s everywhere now that there is a fear that it’s losing its meaning because we’re seeing it everywhere. But also when you’ve got the needs of different groups in the same space sometimes they can collide to the point where you go, ‘We have no more space for it or to accommodate more’, but you’re saying actually what we need to see when these different needs collide and contradict sometimes, which inevitably they will, you actually lean into the possibility that comes out of that and say, ‘Okay, where is that taking us? Where is the enlightenment there?’

Gbolahan: I just feel as if we can always do more, you know. Like I say, and that’s where we have to find ways to argue for why we are doing more and also where that needs to come from. In the past, I have felt as if I have had to navigate through an oppressive system that is hell-bent on excluding me from any sort of access or visibility of power. What I can’t do is then become a carbon copy of the institutions or industry or sector that has, in the past, done its best to push me out or keep me at arm’s length.

I have to find ways to utilise my voice and my positional power now, to make space for others as much as also facilitate the stages and opportunities for others to express themselves.

Because one thing is that we somehow feel as if we are entitled to, in positions of power, is to just speak for others, and as if we are the arbiters of all knowledge and truth and in a way, there has to be more humility in saying, ‘You know what? This isn’t about me and I’m alright with that.’

Actually, those that have the argument to make and the fight to call into the arena are here to really express themselves for themselves, for their community and for those that are not in the room or are not able to be there at that particular time.

In that regard, then step back and let them take the stage, let them take the space and a lot can be learnt from that. Because the fight is more to do with the fact that one of the things that we aren’t confronting is the idea that there isn’t enough resource or the resources are actually going in the wrong spaces or to the wrong people, or to the wrong organisations or institutions who actively have value for what they contribute but yet perhaps, are not necessarily inviting a much wider demographic of people.

A much wider diversity of experiences of people or even offering the access and inclusion required makes it a really equitable space or equitable landscape for us to coexist. Though resources can also be counterintuitive because with funds, sometimes comes a certain smugness that some institutions with more resources and funds either begin to subscribe to a popularity contest where they have to keep proving their worth by replicating what they see as the model of success or the model of growth and the model of expansion and begin to model a kind of elitism, and that is the antithesis of the pursuit for inclusion.

Because then we are not trying to change anything; we’re just trying to find the same versions of that thing and reassure ourselves that is the only way it can be done for it to be of value, for it to have well renowned or for it to have international reputation or success or even, you know, when you look down on at the paper you go, ‘Oh, actually this thing is making money or this thing is attracting money. And yet money is the root of the problem. But it can also be the solution as long as it is equally distributed and people are aware of the fact that, to a certain extent a lot of the access and a lot of the inclusion that is required needs to be well funded, needs to be well resourced and people need to believe in it and see the value of it.

But then also allow the organisations that are doing it well to thrive as an example of how to benchmark for the way you should be getting it right. The way it can be done well. In the way that people are consulted and contributing to the parts of what makes systems equitable, effective and long-lasting.

Alia: Thank you so much for sharing with us your reflections on what needs to be happening in cultural organisations, and how we make space for these kinds of experiments and creativity and risk-taking and openness to what representation and inclusion and diversity can really genuinely look like on the inside within the confines of outside forces that potentially limit us. One model is not going to work for everyone and if we keep looking at the same models we are never going to get anywhere. We’ll definitely be looking to you, at Brixton House, who are inviting curiosity into your practice and trying to do things differently.

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Themes Inclusive Leadership Practice